Friday, May 6, 2011

Are Finnish people Asian?

Every week, at least two people land on this blog with some combination of the keywords "Are Finnish people Asian." The Finnish-Mongolian connection is a common misconception that lives on to this day. When I was living in England, people often commented on how interesting it is that Finnish people originate from Mongolia and how "Finnish is not related to any other language." (Hah!) More than one Englishman claimed to easily see that I have "Asian eyes." And yellow skin.

The desire to see Finns as "different" persists in the media: in his analysis of Finland's first school shooting, in Tuusula in 2007, London Times correspondent Roger Boyes points to paganism and friendless Finns' desolate lives, mostly in darkness, as the uniquely Finnish conditions leading to the shooting deaths of nine people. He describes most people as living on isolated farmsteads, having apparently neglected to Google for the statistics that reveal that 77% of Finns live in cities, towns and surrounding metropolitan areas.

It's hard to assert "I am white" without seeming a little aspirational, and seeming to embrace the idea that being white is better. The whole discussion happens in a context where "non-whiteness" is first assigned to Finns and quickly followed by a list of characteristics that define Finns as "less than". One is then left, as a Finn, to defend the idea that someone can be white and still be uncivilized, alcoholic, violent, and have strange customs like the sauna. The only explanation for these behaviors need not be found in the un-Europeanness of one's DNA.

Early racial theories pegged Finns as "Mongoloid", primitive, animalistic, the usual non-white descriptives. Mostly, these ideas were based on the since-discredited Uralic-Altaic racial theory which, in turn, was based on somewhat primitive linguistics. There was also considerable curiosity about the origins of the Sami, the last indigenous people of Europe. Finland, like other Nordic countries and Russia, has a small Sami population. There was anxiety over the dangers of racial mixing that this represented. This, in turn, led to discriminatory racial policies towards the Sami.

Our language family used to dominate what is today known as Russia and Eastern Europe, all across Siberia but - ironically - not Mongolia. Slavic expansion gradually displaced Ugric peoples and languages, but millions of us still inhabit Finland, Hungary, Estonia, five autonomous republics of Russia, as well as other areas. Some of the indigenous Ugric speakers still practice traditional shamanistic religions. We all share some version of the sauna, and a propensity for drinking copious amounts of alcohol.

In the U.S. in the early 20th century, there were attempts to deport Finns (especially socialist labor organizers) under the Asian Exclusion Act, due to our "Mongolian" origin. Later on, the Finns and the Hungarians were considerd to be the only civilized representatives of our race. Finnish anthropologists and Finns themselves have struggled to be seen as white for close to 200 years. We're still debating what it means to be Finnish, what is considered "foreign" and who gets to decide. It sometimes feels like the only acceptable topic for artistic and cultural production in Finland is "what does it mean to be a Finn?" Some Finns embrace the exotic, Ugric, pagan view of Finnishness and identify strongly with our Finno-Ugric relatives. The panic to be seen as white and civilized is a neurosis that has never really left Finnish culture, and may to some extent tinge the Finns' own racist impulses and defensiveness.

Genetic studies have shown that we may not share special Mongolian genes, but our Ugric language carries a lot of culture and world view in them. Finnish language carries shamanistic terms for soul and spirit, for example, that we now use for "nature" and "breath".

So to clarify for anyone who has absorbed the view of the 1920's Encyclopaedia Britannica that Finns are a strong, hardy race, of low stature, with almost round head, low forehead, flat features, prominent cheek bones, eyes mostly grey and oblique, short and flat nose, protruding mouth, thick lips, neck very full and strong; - complexion also somewhat brown. Us ethnic Finns, we are mostly not brown. Some of us have Sami genes, but many do not, and Sami people are not brown either. Many ethnic Sami, in fact, look completely white to a casual observer. Many of us don't feel that defensive about being thought about as exotic, though, and embrace the wild and woolly stereotype that gets attached to us. I hear it's terrific for getting laid, or launching an artistic career in Sweden. It's not that traumatizing to be thought of as exotic when it comes with all the privileges that go along with being, in fact, white.

Further reading for anyone who's interested in this subject:
Battling to be European: Myth and the Finnish Race by Edward Dutton - a paper critiquing Finnish researchers who claim that Finns are white. Another interesting specimen is an article angrily renouncing Nokia for having too much sauna culture. It's interesting to me that the blame for failures by Finns is assigned to being "too Finnish" - meaning, primitive, backwards, culturally un-European. When Finns attempt to define their own race and assert that they are European, they are accused of being nationalistic, myopic, backwards, and unaccepting of objective truth. The Finnish genome is combed for evidence that we are not white. One chromosome that some Finnish men share with the Chinese, but not with other Europeans is considered "proof" - but of what? Why is it so vitally important to find this proof? Any discussion of race as a cultural construct is left aside from these "scientific" debates, where white English men are objective observers who get to assign race to others and determine what problems and incorrect modes of behavior follow from having that "othered" ethnicity. 
Illustration: The Swedish Nation, "Folk and Race-Types" (Nordic, mixed-race, Finnish, Lapp, Lappic mixed-race, Walloon), 1921

34 comments:

  1. Hei! I admit I just arrived here from Google (though not using the keywords you mentioned). Thank you for this very fascinating post and the loads of great facts and insight within. I'm half-Finnish, and have grown up hearing about the Finnish-Mongolian connection. Now I can phone my mother and triumphantly tell her she's wrong, and await the flurry of "perkele"s from a sore loser. :)

    Kiitos!

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  2. You're just Finnish, what else is important?
    Who cares what the crazy Swedish semi-Nazi anthropologists thought in the thirties, that's hardly relevant at all.
    No one in their right mind, who had actually seen any Finns in Finland, would actually think that there was anything "Mongoloid" aka Asian about Finns. IT's ridiculous.

    Ps. There was nothing about Finns in my search, I ended here anyway.

    PPS. And Dutton is dumb. He knows nothing, he just think you're similar to Inuits "in spirit" lol. I guess he stayed in some remote small town, and now he thinks that some hicks are representative for Finland, though most people live in southern Finland, not in some remote cabin in some forest by a thousand lakes.

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  3. Hi, thanks for taking the time to comment! I think what this shows is that if you live in a poor country that other people want to run for you, they find a reason to call you "not white". Once your country is part of the 1st world and your people are running it, they find a way to racially reclassify you, or re-characterize your race.

    As far as Dutton, I don't know what he's on about. I think it may be embarrassing to admit that the Encyclopaedia Britannica was deeply wrong.

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  4. Haha, Finns are definitely not "exotic" in Sweden. Maybe in Norway and Denmark, though.

    I guess the Finnish-Swedish historical relationship (after the split) is quite similar to the English-Irish relationship. The English racists depicted the Irish as black Africans or closer related to them, the Swedish racists thought that the Finns were of Asian origin. The Irish and Finns were "uncivilized low classes" in England/USA and Sweden, respectively.

    If the Finns aren't "white" due speaking an Uralic language and maybe having ancient and minor "Asian" DNA, then African Americans and not fully Spanish-descended South/Central Americans are white Iberians because of having Spanish or Portuguese ancestry and speaking Indo-European languages. The analogy doesn't really last. But then again, there are lots of Americans who think that ethnic Spaniards aren't white but exactly the same as Mexicans. So I guess Finns are not alone about being victims of ignorance.

    And Finns aren't the only group where you can cherry pick images of individuals with "Asian-looking" eyes. Even Brits are capable of having it, like Diana Rigg, Chris Rea and Timothy West. No ethnic group is "pure". The Europeans ancestors all came from somewhere in Asia, humans never emerged there.

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  5. I am not the brightest guy in the world--but I do have a Ph.D. in Biochemistry. I specialized in human genetics and cancer. I was born 1934 in N.E. MN 100 mi north of Duluth. My granddad was one of 4 top aids to Pres. Teddy Roosevelt.
    Before coming to America he was an engineer who built roads, bridges and churches in Finland. How he met Teddy and got involved in Spanish-Am. War is not fully known.

    Since 1971 I have lived half the time in Finland. I speak and read both Finn and English well. My granddad worked with Gus Hallberg (Hallinen) 1904-5 to organize International Workers of the World (IWW). Some called it the Communist Party. The Finns were the first ethnic group in world to strike and get their work week reduced from 14 hour 7 day weeks to 8 hour 5 day weeks. They started this struggle in Finland in 1880s against the Russian Tsar who in 1800s controlled Finland as a semi-autonomous province.

    The other ethnic groups, the Swedes, Slovenians, Croations, Italians would not go on strike in copper and iron ore mines or in lumber camps (in the camps there were no other tribes working as they did not know how to work in forests as lumberjacks--didn't even know how to fall a tree with an axe and saw.)

    In any case, many Finn were strike leaders and marchers in demonstrations wanting more humane work week in USA. They were shot by "goons" hired by the mining and timber corporation owners to quell the strikes.

    My granddad and family escaped "left Dodge" just in nick of time--and moved into deep wilderness to build a small farm. Like many Finns he was "black-listed" and prevented from getting any type of job, so farming was only way to get/grow food and live.

    We American middle class--the workers--owe a mega gratitude to Finns for starting and struggling to get all of us a humane work week--although the Uber-Rich, mainly Zionists on Wall Street, and in men in Big Oil , are likely going to sadly succeed in lowering the middle class into a poor class as exists in the 3rd world and Mexico.

    In any case any human being that has light-pigmented (white) skin and light brown or white blond hair has Finnish genes. For the highest phenotype or expression of these attributes, and coded by genes, is found in their purest homozygous unmixed states in central Finland.

    But at end of last Ice Age Finns and many related Finnic tribes and Finno-Ugric tribes did not live up north near vicinity of area that became Finland. For in 11000 BC the north was covered by Gaciers. In fact in 11000 BC light-pigmented Finnic tribes lived in the northern part of Africa and The Near East.

    In Egypt they built the Great Pyramid: It was a "Pyora mittaja" or stone pyramid sky wheel measurer with shafts that measured rate of rotation of 12 night star zodiac patterns--25,920 yrs for all to make one full revolution.

    And Jesus was not a Jew. His mother tongue was a Finnic tongue like Finnish. And this is why so few words that Jesus spoke were ever written down by Romans and Greeks.

    In fact Biblical Scholars have always wondered why only a few words that Jesus spoke were actually written down. The reason was because the Romans and the Greeks did not understand the mother tongue of Jesus--in which he and God spoke to the local natives; the indigenous people. To be understood by the original natives living in Egypt and the Near East it was necessary that God and Jesus spoke in a Finnic tongue(s).

    For more on these topics kindly click link, http://finnics7.blogspot.com or in a search engine(s) as Yahoo or Google type, finnics7.blogspot, and catholicwealth.blogspot, and zionists run fed reserve, kill usa, by will, and catholic church wealth huge by will, and catholic church riches huge by will. My email, willfin02@yahoo.com.

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  6. Interesting article. The debate over whether Finns and Saami people should be considered white or Asian has been beaten to death in anthropological discussions. I am only interested in it because I like general anthropology, but I do notice that most of the searches I've done regarding this lead me to white supremacy internet forums. That being said, I think this is the first article I've read that briefly addresses the negative associations evoked by labeling Finns as Asian. It seems to me that Finns will bend over backwards to deny any association with the Mongolian race. While they may indeed have little association, my question is: why is that bad, anyway? Most of those very people who want to keep anthropolgical credibility in the academic world and avoid being labeled a white supremacist would probably not dare say it aloud, but I think it is indeed an adherence to the "white is right" philosophy. It amazes me that people, usually Americans, always want to remark that modern-day Scandinavia is so liberal and free of racism and yet we come across issues like these. Denying any Asian connection, by itself, is not racist. What is an evident, true form of racism is when resulting reactions are negative. This includes non-Finns who desperately want to use this as a way to prove Finns inferior as well as the Finns who so desperately want to avoid that and yearn to be accepted into the white race. Why is being white so important to you?

    Just my two cents.

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  7. Annie:

    Racists exist everywhere. Of course there would be racists who get insulted by and deny that they eventually have heritage from another continent. That is the case pretty much everywhere. Ever seen the movie True Romance? You don't think Afrocentrists find it controversial that African Americans pretty much always have a significant Caucasian strain in their DNA?

    Furthermore, it is not about "denying an Asian connection" to me. What is the issue is that the Finns are called (completely) Asian because of some Asian connection. One splotch of Asian and you're nothing but an Asian. The infamous "one-drop rule", in other words. I don't see why arguing against an old racist belief and state law is racist too.

    I'm not Finnish, but I would eventually have no problems at all not being "100 percent Caucasian". But the thing is, I strongly dislike when people reason that race and ethnicity are the same, or simply "race = identity". While my DNA would be somewhat Asian or African, the case wouldn't necessarily be the same when it came to my identity.

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  8. Really interesting article with a lot of valid points, and not to mention highly informative.
    My only experience with Finns is that of being married to one for over a decade. My perspective is that of coming from a Norwegian one (being a native). The longer I have visited and taken the time to speak to more Finns, no matter how lovely and intelligent they are, there is still a resonating feeling like they don't want to be perceived as being connected to anything 'Eastern', specifically Russian, Eastern European and most certainly not of Mongolian descent. I have found Finnish culture to be a little riddled with confusion. Most Scandinavians (that's Norwegians, Swedes and Danes) don't really perceive Finns to be Scandinavian. Needless to point out, there is linguistic division. The food is also different, and in general the culture is different than that of Scandinavia. Finns are quick to ally themselves with being part of Europe, part of the EU and most definitely Scandinavian. Finnish language is related to Finno- Ugric. A completely different language to anything Germanic. Finns should stand proud to be Finns. They shouldn't need to be a part of anything. After all, they physically do look different to the Scandinavians, just as a Swede looks different to a Norwegian (to the well trained eye). It was the 'sisu' that got the Finns to fight and beat the Russians, they have a strong sense of pride. A remarkable race & culture, but far too divided internally with their attachment to Scandinavia (specifically Sweden). They were much longer under Russian colonisation than Swedish, and yet they assimilated less than 6 % of their population to be Finn-Swedes, and officially make their languages both Finnish & Swedish. Yet, most Finn-Finns learn & speak Swedish at school with an undertone of distaste. It's a confusing situation.

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  9. Annie,

    I seem to stumble on this debate over and over again in places like youtube or when I'm googling for something else entirely and google throws me one of those white supremacy forums.

    For me this is not an issue of "white is right". It's about being denied your identity. I am Finnish and I am white, it's not good or bad, it's just a fact and it's who I am and I don't want or need to be accepted. When you discuss whether or not I can be accepted into the white club, you automatically tell me I am somehow lesser and don't have ownership to my own identity.

    It's not about being called Asian, it's about being called something that you are not. I do not think of it as racist if I react negatively to someone calling me dirty or lesser.

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  10. So good post
    and I hope to visit my Blog Ancient Egyptian Good and Goddess and see Bastet God thanks again Admin

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  11. I enjoyed this article, but with some slight disagreement with its initial premise. While it is true that Finns are as Euopean as any other Scandinavians (for whatever that's worth), I do believe that certain remote and/or minute Asiatic affinities still show themselves subtly. I have from time to time throughout my life been asked by some people if I was "part Asian" (including twice by Chinese people!). Only recently did I find out that I was of Dunnish descent. And if you go into the Urals and look at the Volga and Permian Finns, these traces become yet more visible...

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  12. Fuck all racists and "supremacist" bigots... Those kind of people are the maggots of the sewer.

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  13. Finnish people have Asian roots but they are not asian anoymore, just like the Hungarians and Turks(Turkey).
    When they moved to europa they mixed with the other races and they lost their origin type. Which doesn't make them non-europian and there ain't no pure race in europa. We all came from Afrika in the beginning.
    Regards

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  14. As a 1/2 Japanese and 1/2 Chinese female, I want to know WHY FINNS FEEL OFFENDED WHEN THEY ARE TOLD THEY HAVE MONGOLOID GENES????

    Do you view East Asians like me who has mongoloid genes as inferior to Europeans??? We Asians with Mongoloid genes are a proud ethinic group! Why must you eurpeans be ashamed of somehow have some DNA relations with our ancestors?? Pleae explain?

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    Replies
    1. Most likely because in our language, mongoloid is derogatory term for people with down syndrome..

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  15. @Anonymous,

    Just fess up! The only reason the Finns react negatively when they are labeled Asian is because most Finns still view Asian as not of inferior. The Finns want to be part of the group to be accepted -Europe.


    I have a friend who is half Japanese and half Finnish and do you know what? She is proud to be part Asian!!! So why can you Finnish just fess up and accept you genetic facts! I thought Europeans were a peaceful society but can't beleive there are still ethinic discrimiations! sigh.,


    ----------------------------------

    Anonymous said...
    Annie,

    I seem to stumble on this debate over and over again in places like youtube or when I'm googling for something else entirely and google throws me one of those white supremacy forums.

    For me this is not an issue of "white is right". It's about being denied your identity. I am Finnish and I am white, it's not good or bad, it's just a fact and it's who I am and I don't want or need to be accepted. When you discuss whether or not I can be accepted into the white club, you automatically tell me I am somehow lesser and don't have ownership to my own identity.

    It's not about being called Asian, it's about being called something that you are not. I do not think of it as racist if I react negatively to someone calling me dirty or lesser.

    April 9, 2012 4:30 PM

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  16. @Annie:

    It's simple Annie, many Finns people still are dormant in their thinking of Asians. They have little to no knowledge of what's going on in Asia. Or have not came on contact with Asians because they still believe "white is better". They don't know that Asia (Japan, China, Korea) are among the top economic powers in this world.

    As a half japanese and half chinese American it really is quite sad to see people of Finland not open minded to accpeting those of us from Asia. It's quite sad how closed minded they are!

    I hope as the world become more globalized more people opf Finland can open up to people from Asia and accept us.

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    1. I actually find it slightly offensive how you generalize all of us. Yes there are many racist Finns whose minds are filled with the ancient "white is right" thoughts.

      There are also many people who are different from that.
      My family line originally comes from eastern Europe and Sweden. At some point some nazi souldiers came in and now I'm 25% German.

      I want all of my ancestors to be recognized as a whole.I want all of my family history to be recognized. All of my history.Everything that I'm proud of not just a small part of it. Just like I want all my personality traits to be accepted.

      I'm proud to have my unique slightly Asian features.
      And I'm proud to be culturally and genetically versatile.
      I don't like it when I'm put to little boxes and stereotyped.

      Delete
  17. Finns are largely Asian (or Mongoloid) paternally, when one considers that 58% of Finnish males carry the N3 Y haplogroup. According to almost all genetic studies, the N3 Y haplogroup is of Asiatic Mongoloid origin, having originally developed amongst the Asians in South-East Asia over 14,000 years ago. These Asian settlers (or at least the male descendants of this group) then migrated to China, then from China onto Northern Siberia and then finally to the North-Eastern European regions of Finland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and parts of North-Western Russia. There these Asiatic Mongoloid N3 Y haplogroup males intermarried with the indigenous white European females. This first produced a hybrid population of Eurasians peoples, who were Asiatic Mongoloid from their father's side and European from their mother's side (MTDNA). Over generations and hundreds and thousands of years, as these mixed Eurasians descendants married more European women, the Mongoloid Asiatic components of the original Finns, North-Western Russians, Estonians, Latvians, and Lithunians were diluted further, until currently the Finnish population is considered to be about 10% of Siberian/Uralic or Mongoloid Asiatic descendant overall (meaning autosomally in genetic terms), although paternally they are entirely Asiatic (the N3 Y haplogroup) and entirely European maternally.

    The Uralic cousins of the Finns, and the North-Western Russians, Estonians, Latvians, and Lithunians in the Ural mountains and further east in Siberia such as the Nganasan, Nenets, Khants, Yakuts, Mansi, and others look far more Asian, since they are overall (i.e. genetically autosomally) more Asian and have not only overwhelming the N3 Y haplogroup genes from their paternal side, but also Asiatic Mongoloid MTDNA from their maternal side.

    Hence, the Finns and the North-Western Russians, Estonians, Latvians, and Lithunians are largely Asian and Mongoloid paternally and largely European both autosomally and maternally.

    Finns have the Asiatic paternal genes and no wonder like their East Asian cousins such as the Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, and others, the Finnish population and Finnish children and youth are amongst the top (similar to the East Asians) when it comes to education achievements, and abilities in mathematics and scientific proficiency.

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  18. Anonymous said...:
    "Finns are largely Asian"

    This notion is not based on any kind of data whatsoever. It's an idea literally derived from the 19th century pseudoscientific ethnology books, which were written by people who never visited the region in their lifetime, during a time the nation state of Finland didn't exist, nor did they have any grasp on genetics at that time. It's an idea that has a clear negative connotation to it, and has been perpetrated for centuries now with an underlying racist motive. Not that there is anything wrong with it if it was true and provable, but it turns out the statement is also false.

    Fyi., Y-DNA haplogroups have nothing to do with one's "race". It is a single marker passed down paternally. It can literally change in a matter of generation or two if another haplogroup was to overtake it.

    60% of Finns belong to the N1c1c Y-DNA substrada, which is entirely European, and can only be found within European populations. It would be literally possible that in a matter of a few generations, the remaining 40% could simply overtake the 60%, making N a minority in Finland, without actually touching the overall genetic makeup of Finland. The point is, haplogroups "take over" each other all the time.

    Similarly, in Western Europe, the original haplogroups of the European stone age got overtaken by the asian haplogroup R, brought by the male-line Indo-Europeans. In that sense, I guess you could say we're all "asian".

    As far as the "mongoloid" element. Finnish people, let alone the nation, or the language, didn't exist for a very long time compared to the rest of Europe. In the Middle Ages there were probably less than 50k people living in the region (check History of Finland). The notion that Finns somehow came from the East, while mixing with various populations along the way makes no logical sense either, since the closest relatives to the Finns are by far Swedes and the Balts. In fact, to further illustrate this point, Finns are about equally close related to Southern Italians (which is another European outlier group) as they are to the Sami people, which many people seem to think are close relatives to Finns.

    So, almost everything about the Finns, their genes, their language and nation has formed and come about in the eastern part of Europe. To say that Finns are not entirely European would be like saying the Irish are not entirely European, or that Italian are not entirely European.

    Just how European in terms of DNA are the Finns then? How much of their DNA derives from the earliest European populations? Surely there are varying degrees of it. Well, yes. L.L. Cavalli-Sforza measured Finns to be about 90% European (Wikipedia). Dodecad Ancestry Project gives 90% in one study, 91% in another. This is comprised by combining both Northern and Southern European admixes. Let's put this into perspective: Irish are about 91%, Scandinavians are 93%, Sardinians are about 97%, while the highest, French Basque, are 99% European. So, 90% is low? No, actually, it is above average. British are also 90%, Germans 90%, French are about 87% as are Hungarians and Russians. Mainland Italians range from 78% to 69% in the South. Balkans on average are 77%, with Greece being the lowest at 60%. Sami people are only 50% (L.L. Cavalli-Sforza), making them very different from Finns. Turkey stands at 30% European. Without Turkey (which is not part of Europe anyway), the average European admix is somewhere in the 80's, making Finns one of the more "European" populations on the continent in terms of DNA. In the end though, no one is absolutely 100% European.

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  19. Continued...

    Finns, like Scandinavians and some slavs, have minute amounts of Siberian and West Asian, zero African. Conversely, Southern European populations have no Siberian but have more North African and West Asian. Here's the kicker (which may not come as a surprise to you if you are familiar with these studies): Finns are zero percent East Asian / mongol or what have you. The only populations near Europe that actually are, belong somewhere among the many Russian ethnic groups, and Turkey. Turks have some East Asian in them. This came undoubtedly from the many East Asian invasions such as the Mongols, but it never got a foothold in Europe proper.

    Anyway, those are just the facts. I hope this post was informative.

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  20. Still some finnish look like japanese, even when they are white. Who cares if someone is white or not!

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  21. Rummor is telling truth.

    Finns indeed have some of Chinese, Japanese, Koreanese, and Mogolian, whatever Asian Oriental genes. So what. 5000 years ago.

    Asian is smartest race in the world.

    We are very pride that we have some of Asian genes.

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  22. First sorry for my bad English. I have a company running in Finland and Sweden. I am Japanese businessman. However i have realized that we Japanese have so much similarities with Finns. There are so much similarities in language, culture, behavior,emotion, feelings, face expression, habits etc. I was shocked in the beginning. Now I am writing a book about this similarities in Japan.

    The most common habit is that Finns don't shake hand with each other same like we in Japan.

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  23. Hi I'm Finnish and I would just like to say that not all Finnish people have a negative reaction to being called part Asian, a lot of Finnish people will just say " so what". Of course there are those who run away screaming " say it ain't so" when this theory is brought up. Probably because some of the people spreading this theory have questionable reasons to do so. And I just have to clear up this 'othernes' linked to Finnish people. First of all Finland was part of Sweden for more than 500 years and it was part o Russia for 108 years. Finland resembles the other Northern European countries more than any other country ( similar society, culture, welfare the list goes on...), it's the overall that counts not "oh Finnish people like to do this so there for they are just like Japan/Turkey/Russia/Argentina/which ever country you could think of". There won't be a second point but I feel compelled to direct people to Wikipedia's Finland page.

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  24. C great comment. I am what I am: 1/4 Finn, the rest American mutt. With that said: The father to my children was also 1/4 Finn. Strangely, our one son was born with a Mongolian spot on his lower back. I was told years later it probably came from the Finnish side. We should all be proud of our heritage and stop trying claim one race is better than another.

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  25. I'm 100% Finn... my family came to US in the 1930's... they didn't keep written records... and only told me a little... so I can't trace everything positively... but the stories the family has passed down were we are either Kalevalan or Saami or a cross... the old folks from the old country told me they didn't speak Finn but spoke a language that started with a K... can't remember... but they were in the US to be Americans... my Mom was the last born in Finland and wasn't taught the language because she came here at age 1... they were forced to speak English. But the folks from the old country ALWAYS SAID THERE ARE ANCIENTS THAT CAME FROM MONGOLIA... they seemed proud of this heritage and were somewhat angry with history that has been told about the Finns because the ancients did a lot of great things... it really irritated them when people would attribute the sauna to the Swedes... or great ships to the Vikings... etc. and the great tenacity and superior battle strategies they possessed fighting wars... thanks for reading.

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  26. Fyi., Y-DNA haplogroups have nothing to do with one's "race". It is a single marker passed down paternally. It can literally change in a matter of generation or two if another haplogroup was to overtake it.

    This is absurd. It very much has to do with race since the original meaning of that word was who you are descended from. And this marks descent on the male line. Basically the unfortunate thing is that the word is now used to mean something else which I will address again below.

    Furthermore I've seen no evidence to suggest major changes in y-dna profiles of populations outside of well-known and confirmed colonization events, e.g. Spanish colonization of America. They don't change greatly except on peripheries or places where people move around a lot.

    Y-dna certainly does correlate with even the more modern definition of race. Although it is true that you can't know a person's physical characteristics (i.e. modern def. of race) by y-dna alone, it would at least offer a good guessing point. For example, as I am r1a1a someone would not be wrong to guess that I would look either European or North Indian.

    Anyway, it's probably true that Finnic origins as Asiatic is overheated but as far as I know haplogroup NO is supposed to originate in Asia somewhere. So we can't rule it out as a possibility. And really, why would it be a bad thing for Finns to be part-Asian?

    -MVN

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  27. "And really, why would it be a bad thing for Finns to be part-Asian?"

    Because it's not their identity? Not even true? It's largely based on French 19th century racist Arthur de Gobineau? And it's been used as a mock word for centuries? By others.

    Your culture is almost complete western, it's the only thing you really know, and still you're not accepted anywhere. Asians don't think you're Asian, and Europeans say you're not European. Because you're not "pure" even when they aren't either. Oh, joy.

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  28. Persia will have her revenge on you Fingolians, just you wait you horse riding savage.

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  29. "Your culture is almost complete western, it's the only thing you really know, and still you're not accepted anywhere. Asians don't think you're Asian, and Europeans say you're not European. Because you're not "pure" even when they aren't either. Oh, joy."

    I'm blonde Finnish man and I have been accepted everywhere as white European, would be ridiculous even to think otherwise. I also think that Finnish people are the most "European" of all people. Highest concentration of light hair and light eyes in Europe, the whitest face. The cliche. I think it's kind of jealousy from other people, so they try to put us down.

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  30. Finns appear to possess major inferiority complex issues. Can't accept who you are. Disgusting. Looks like wasted people to me. Yikes.

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  31. Thank you for this. My interests is actually in China, but includes cultural exchanges that may have happened over the centuries. I am Black and yet, in some places I am still seen as exotic, of all places in Spain, but not in a good way. No matter, I am who I am.

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